The Pickiness of Fans
 

Mentioned over in the purchase thread that I felt horror fans were becoming pampered and expected all the dvds to now be high-def quality and whined when they weren't.

A good and valid point was brought up that said if its out there than its not unreasonable to expect it. Which I can definitely see.

However when I grew up watching horror and managed to find the old bootlegs and the vhs i'd watched over and over again not once did I think if only I could see the zombies clearer or this film I love would be so much better in high def.

I still don't. I'll pick up blu rays(I have quite a few) when they are cheap or have superior extras but for my horror I'm not looking for pristine.

I like my Mill Creek comps with the VHS quality horror. It takes me back to a simpler time in my horror fandom.

Just wondering if anyone else feels that its gone too far and that the old quality still has a place ?

Oi! Is that a dig at me? Just kidding :)

You do make an interesting point but ultimately I think it's just about wanting the best that technology can offer. If 3rd generation VHS is the only way to see a film then fair enough. However if a company can bring out an HD release and replicate the original film print as accurately as possible then this is obviously a better way to view the film. We're at the stage now where films like Blood Feast, Cannibal Holocaust and Alien 2: Terror on Earth can be found in excellent HD transfers. If I had the chance to watch Cannibal Holocaust on a grimy VHS or the Shameless bluray I'd go with the latter (although I know some people find watching a poor quality representation of a film like that enhances the experience due to the nostalgic quality) As a result, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same high standards from other releases. If they fall short then so be it, but these days there's no point in lowering expectations. And I say that as someone who has a fair few Mill Creek sets and enjoys them :)

Actually I started the thread because I liked your response so cheers:)

I agree with what you are saying but I also think some films dont need to be complete pristine quality and it often takes away from them. Some of those realistic cannibal/grindhouse /video nasties really dont come off the best when put in HD. It was often the nastiness of the copy that gave it that "ohmygod is this real" feeling.

I've also noticed that we are starting to see some films actually coming in collector VHS format.

I buy a lot of Troma and millcreek knowing its that old style feel to it. That actually has become a selling point when I am buying dvds.

I love the high-def stuff that comes of well and adds to the film, I just don't think that it always does add to the film.

It also depends what you mean by bad quality in a way I guess. There could be a really great 1080p transfer of an old film from a heavily print-damaged source or it could just be a really bad lazy transfer which does the master no justice

I guess what I mean isn't when they just butcher the film and its horrible even compared to the old ep VHS copies but people seem to think VHS quality automatically means bad when in actuality its far from it.

I think nowadays that the best quality print/release is just a mouse click(and a wait for the post) away people become less prepared to to tolerate less than what was expected, but I all too clearly remember slogging around central London on a shopping trip and getting great joy finding a rare, maybe even pre-cert vhs and knowing the p.q. was not going to be great but it didn't matter just great to have a copy of 'Nights of Terror' and sit down and check it out. But having said all that, I do love a good bluray, but just imagine what people will expect in a decade or two.

I expect BD to be better than DVD. That's about it. I'm glad the days of watching poor quality nth generation VHS tapes are long gone. And yes, when watching bad VHS tapes I did wish I could own a better copy.

I think people are a bit misguided,not knowing that you can't release a bd or even a good dvd of many films.
Why?
Because no decent materials exist anymore/can be found.

Here's an interesting podcast which touches on the subject of fan's expectations and reality concerning HK film releases on vhs/ld/dvd/bd.

Discussion starts at about 32:30

Podcast On Fire 125: Tom On Fire AKA Come On, Let’s Make Happy

I'm just glad to be able to watch some of my favourite horror films clearly, whether it's on DVD or BD, without having to squint through a layer of fuzziness and snow.I don't feel any nostalgia for battered old VHS tapes at all.

To each his own but the VHS tapes still had superior artwork and I felt a helluva lot more satisfaction tracking down an uncut copy of Four Flies for instance then I do walking into HMV and just picking up a dvd or blu with often awful artwork and glossed up more than it was in theatre.

If they are so bad then why not just stick with your hard earned vhs tapes?

Just give me dvds and Bd's with decent (and in most cases, the original) artwork, and I'd be a happy chappy. i AM picky. :)

Sometimes i wonder if you actually need the discs. :lol:

Haha, I'm beginning to wonder myself!

Some collectors can actually do both without giving a smarmy "if you dont like it" attitude.

I started the thread asking for peoples opinions not there attacks..not cool.

It seemed especially relevant at a time when we are seeing Albums and VHS making a comeback in a collectors niche market.

As for the not needing discs joke..it actually is becoming a serious question. I know so many people now that have moved away from physical media into digital format. For a lot of casuals blu has been bypassed completely to go right into digital.

Yeah, sorry you're right. :)

I tend to think you're right about Blu being bypassed and casual viewers going with Netflix and other video on demand companies.

I'm not aware of vhs making a comeback over here. Vinyl will never die and is still being produced.

Its all good.

Yeah where I live I dont know anyone that has cable or Sattelite anymore its all Netflix and hulu plus.

VHS tapes are being made as speciality and limited editions to promote films. My friend actual has the VHS of House of the Devil. You can google "vhs the new vinyl" and find a bunch of articles on it.

Even Horrorhound has an extremely succesful series of articles on VHS tapes.

I personally am a collector of all formats. The original statement was that horror fans are not as badass as they once were and get kinda anal about the picture quality. Which I truly standby, Ive had some great dvds that werent the most amazing quality but it gave that old school horror feel that really worked.

Heck one of the most talked about horror films right now is V/H/S and I wouldnt be at all surprised if the do what the Nethrlands did for Paranormal Activity and actually put out VHS copies. Since they will be a lot less the market makes it an instant collectors item similiar to the way Vinyl is marketed.

Heres an interesting little article:

http://theweekender.com/stories/VHS-...w-vinyl,151130

Nice article Arrowfan.

I still have around thirty vhs for films not yet on dvd. I must admit i haven't watched any in years though.

Don't get me wrong, when VHS was the only way I could watch uncut horrors I loved the format.I can remember watching the uncut Vipco pre-cert of Zombie Flesh Eaters and the colour (i.e. the blood & gore), in my mind, looked more realistic and darker in it than both the overly bright Shriek Show and Blue Underground DVDs.I can recall when Laserdiscs became popular and companies like Elite started releasing films like The Evil Dead, Maniac and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I was jealous of people who could afford to collect and watch them on a format where the image was clear and free of bootleg VHS fuzziness.So, when the more affordable DVD format hit the market, and I got access to the internet and my first multi-region DVD player, I was hooked.

Great thread... I started collecting films in the late 80's on VHS and I still can't believe how far we have come - I could never have conceived of such a thing as DVD with all it's bells and whistles (lasers never caught on in Ireland), and I remember getting the Pioneer DVD of Texas Chainsaw Massacre from the US (when it was still an outlaw title in the UK and Ireland), and being awestruck that the film came with a running commentary by the film makers - can you imagine such a thing ? John Peel once said the best year for music releases was the current year, and I feel the same way about DVD/BR. This is truely a Golden Age for film collecting.

I don't really care about everything being HD as long as a film is available on some format and has a relatively good Transfer, i don't mind ripped from VHS as long as it's not an old worn out VHS. Some films i upgrade to because i feel these are the films that need to be seen in the best possible way such as Close Encounters, Jaws, North By NorthWest and The Road Warrior to name just a few.

You're kind of misguided comparing vinyl to VHS though. the vinyl revival is due to the fact that people want the best possible quality for their money, and 180g vinyl sounds better than any CD or digital file will. it's quality, not nostalgia, driving those sales.

Great topic! I don't consider myself very picky, to be honest. I'd say the only dealbreaker for me is when a film is cut for content. As far as picture quality goes, of course I like it when a film print actually looks nice and watchable, but I totally agree that burns, specs and grit can enhance the atmosphere of a film, particularly if its a former Nasty or a rare flick.

That's why I rarely pick up Blu Rays. While there have been exceptions in the past (the Di Leo Crime Collection, for example; I simply NEEDED to see these films in high def, because I worshiped them so, hence double dipping), I almost always go for DVDs, because they're cheaper for my wallet, and I can, as a result, buy more movies! :)

So I guess I see both ends of the argument, but in the end I'm more on the 'atmosphere' tip than needing a film to look as pristine as possible in 1080p digital transfer.

We're spoilt with BD, but .. IMO .. we're still spoilt with DVD. I suppose it depends on your generation, as NOTHING can compare to the heyday of VHS trading/tracking. That's not just to do with the quality upgrade of DVD, but the accessibility of getting films (thanks, internet) you once had to jump through hoops to get hold of - but wasn't it worth it?

So a lot of love for VHS is nostalgia, yes. But I still miss my tapes and consider DVD a blessing. The fact blu came along just enhanced that and made home cinema more cinematic! But I still buy DVDs and I'm no AV snob. If something is only available in a 4:3 VHS print, I'm happy watching it (a HD TV just makes it look shitter than my trusty old CRT).

I tend to buy blus on offer or special upgrades (like my Xth copy of The Exorcist, but boy does it look lovely in HD). No way would I upgrade everything - couldn't afford to, nor wish to!

I should mention the whole laserdisc thing passed me by.. I went from VHS to DVD.

Well said Delirium... And worth a mention too are these very pages - film fan commnunities like this establishment which truely took wing in the DVD age, transforming film collecting culture with the distribution of information, recommendations, ideas and opinions among like minded fans, so much more faster and better than irregularly published fanzines (trailblazing as they were) during the VHS era. Who could say that these are not great days !

Chiming in a little late in the game, but I think the "pickiness" of fans the OP mentions might have to do with the fact that perhaps they're sick of having to repurchase all their favorite films every time a new medium replaces an older one. I can say for myself that I've purchased films on VHS, laserdisc, dvd, and blu-ray, and I'm tired of it. It's gotten to the point now that unless a new edition of film is a significant restoration, as in the case of Universal Classics, or contains some exceptions extras, as in the case of the SE of Cat In The Brain, I'm simply not interesting in triple or quadruple dipping again.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle, as I don't own a blu-ray player yet (As I only collect 90% horror, and old ones at that.) and can understand the point about some films having a certain quality to them on worn out prints, esp when it comes to SFX.

But since I got a HD TV and when some of my DVDs have half decent prints as it is, I love watching them "upscaled" through my XBOX/HDMI. While I wouldn't go as far as "Like watching them for the first time" it is fun seeing them in a new light. (The Xbox/HDMI seems to pick up more texture than my standard player.)

I will upgrade to Blu-Ray at some point, but at the moment I'm loving picking up DVDs for next to nothing.

Interesting points. To me saying "I don't want to see my favourite films on bluray" is as good as saying "I wouldn't want to see them in a 35mm print at the cinema". Obviously there's still a difference in quality but its still about seeing them in as good a format as possible. Film directors rarely, if ever, make a film with the intention of it being viewed as a poorly damaged scratchy print.

unless its DEATH PROOF or PLANET TERROR etc!;)

I can see how the bd format will enhance the viewing pleasure of certain films, i.e. films shot in three band technicolor like The Wizard of Oz, To Catch A Thief, and Suspiria, but for the majority of horror and sci-fi flicks, especially the ones shot in b&W, I just don't see how the bd format really benefits them in any significant way over the standard dvd format.

Psycho looks amazing on Blu Ray, as does NOTLD and the 3 films I've watched so far from the Universal Monsters set

It's just a better digital representation of the 35mm format than DVD basically. Fair enough if you don't see it but I think there's a huge difference between SD and HD even in older films.


Edit: as Rik says Psycho is an excellent example of this

I only buy stuff that i don't have on dvd on blu and films that should be seen in the best possible way such as Jaws, Alien, Blade Runner...etc. Films that were created not just to tell a story narratively but also visually. Also audio quality is something that should come with a good blu, Jaws' 7.1 HDmix is incredible and does give a feel of a cinematic experience, the same goes for Aliens. So these are the types of films that i upgrade from DVD to Blu. I still buy a shit load of dvds because film is a passion for me and some films are unavailable on blu-ray, so DVD is a cheaper option for finding out about films.

The Jean Rollin Blu collection has been incredible and I suspect will turn new audiences on to the French maverick. It did with me...

I enjoy a film for its story, not so much for its pixel count.

If that was the case for everyone then films might as well be filmed using 80's camcorders under poor lighting, as long as they're working from a good script. Fair enough if HD doesn't interest you but to simplify it to a matter of "pixel count" is deeply unfair and undermines the fact that films should be appreciated for their technical qualities like cinematography and sound design as well as narrative, something the bluray format really illustrates better than DVD.

So....basically you're saying that those of us who are quite taken with HD are only interested in pixel counts and not the films themselves? You might want to rephrase that, as it comes across as quite dismissive and insulting...

I'll turn it around on you. If you're not interested in seeing the films in their best possible presentations, then surely that calls into question your own love of cinema. Now that's obviously not true, but see it how it sounds? So, less of the sweeping generalisations, thank you very much. Just because I have an interest in seeing my favourite films migrate to the Blu-ray format does not make me any less of a movie fan than you.

In Robert's defense there can be an obsessive amount of technical scrutiny for DVD/BR releases but I still love the format - last night I caught a few minutes of The Brain That Wouldn't Die on Showcase TV, one of Sky's backwater channels, and it was obvious the film was sourced from a very old, public domain copy which essentially was unwatchable... Thankfully we don't have to put up with that kind of messing anymore.

To play devil's advocate a little, I completely see where Robert is coming from. As mentioned I personally love my blus and have upgraded a reasonable amount - but I'm no HD snob, still keep lots of DVDs that I haven't/won't upgrade, and am not as discerning over transfers as some. However, a fellow cinephile friend of mine who has an encyclopaedic memory when it comes to film (he frequently blows my mind with his recall/knowledge and he loves horror) still, until recently, watched his films on CRT with no plans to upgrade. He's just got a flatscreen as a wealthy neighbour he was friendly with moved out and gave it to him. Lucky for some, but he still doesn't plan to go blu (especially as he's kind of skint). Watching a 'lesser quality' version hasn't marred his enjoyment one bit, and I could almost guarantee he would still pick up on details overlooked by a vast majority of people, including me.