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  #21  
Old 16th June 2011, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TheOwlsAreNotWhatTheySeem View Post
No, I don't think anyone is confusing misogynistic films with films about misogynists. B

I think your next sentence is a strange and sweeping statement though. Whilst I'm sure we would all agree that 'Virgin Witch' is a pretty misogynistic film, I can't imagine that anyone would think its sole purpose (or purpose to any degree) was to make people hate women! But it's still misogynistic. It also happens to be a film that I enjoy, despite this flaw (and a hundred others ).

As Calum says, intent is another issue. The fact Jim Davidson doesn't think that he's racist hardly means that he's not racist...
Meaning is never black and white, but I think that's why this is an interesting debate - though sorry to be off-topic!
Misogyny, by definition, means hatred of women. I don't think Virgin Witch falls into the category of hating women, although it certainly may exploit them for the male audience. But is that the same as hatred?

NYR is about a man who kills women because he hates them, but it's not a film solely about hating women, it merely shows a misogynistic killer at work. But it also portrays the males as being rather unlikeable and shallow too, so where's the accusations of misandry? In fact, in NYR, most of the players are hateful and unlikeable, so its world-view is more akin to misanthropy.

Well, whatever the case, I enjoy these films and haven't yet found myself hating women or even treating them as lower class citizens or sex objects. So I can safely say these films have had zero effect on my world-view whatsoever. It's fiction, I don't take them seriously. In fact, I'm far more troubled by modern rom-coms that present women as ditzy, rather shallow creatures whilst the men are neanderthals who have to be trained to meet women's requirements. It's truly bizarre the stuff coming out of Hollywood at the moment.
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  #22  
Old 16th June 2011, 07:33 AM
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Another good point, Daemonia. Dr Lodge is a powerful figure who exploits his wife, Jane, to satisfy his own perverted sexual urges which brings her into contact with those three sexually aggressive Hispanics in the pool hall.

The three fingered man, Mickey Scellenda, is a really nasty piece of work, Lt Williams is jaded and burnt out so is not 100% committed to solving the case and Paul is a loner who comes across as a bit weird so the only really likeable character is Fay Majors.
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Old 16th June 2011, 10:57 AM
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The same cannot be said for more sterile and studied misogyny of something like the Halloween remake - which, if memory serves, had no BBFC problems at all.

And whilst Kermode, who I really like, did not think much of The New York Ripper he did defend Martyrs (which I hated) and was disgusted by The Devil's Rejects (which I thought was excellent) so you know the old saying about opinions and assholes...
And I happen to like ALL the films mentioned above (I even halfway remember that we two had quite a heated debate over the "Halloween" remake on the good ol' ABUK board eons ago ), so I certainly subscribe to the mentioned "old saying"....

As for the earlier mentioned "Likeable characters in NYR" point:

I actually DO like Lt. Williams in all his grumpy "no BS"-fashion.

I find this movie particularly interesting as the final act hits me emotionally no matter how often I revisit it.
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  #24  
Old 16th June 2011, 11:08 AM
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And I happen to like ALL the films mentioned above (I even halfway remember that we two had quite a heated debate over the "Halloween" remake on the good ol' ABUK board eons ago ), so I certainly subscribe to the mentioned "old saying"....

As for the earlier mentioned "Likeable characters in NYR" point:

I actually DO like Lt. Williams in all his grumpy "no BS"-fashion.

I find this movie particularly interesting as the final act hits me emotionally no matter how often I revisit it.
I remember that debate as well. I posted a fair bit and I haven't even seen it!

Jack Hedley's a likable actor, I feel, and maybe that comes across in his portrayal.

Yes, the ending packs an emotional wallop.
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  #25  
Old 16th June 2011, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Daemonia View Post
Misogyny, by definition, means hatred of women. I don't think Virgin Witch falls into the category of hating women, although it certainly may exploit them for the male audience. But is that the same as hatred?
Again, i don't recognise that definition. Anything that expresses a negative view towards women in general might be considered misogynist. Someone who for example thinks women are inferior to men is obviously misogynist, whether or not they hate women. Maybe there is another thread about 'virgin witch'? (but it is one film unusual in that it actually seems to actively normalise sexual harassment - ie the incredibly random scene where a passer-by pinches a girl's backside and she giggles!)

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Well, whatever the case, I enjoy these films and haven't yet found myself hating women or even treating them as lower class citizens or sex objects. So I can safely say these films have had zero effect on my world-view whatsoever. It's fiction, I don't take them seriously.

...I'm far more troubled by modern rom-coms that present women as ditzy, rather shallow creatures whilst the men are neanderthals who have to be trained to meet women's requirements.
I completely agree about rom-coms and often say the same thing. But doesn't that contradict your previous point?! Hollywood romcoms are 'just fiction', and considered 'just entertaiment', but they in particular do have a significant impact on our culture and how we live. Obscure 80s European horror films far less so. But films do mean things whether it's Tarkovsky or a Fulci quickie or a godawful Hugh Grant creepfest!

Anyway, all this discussion has certainly motivated me to watch NYR! Though I think I might rent it rather than buying a copy

Last edited by TheOwlsAreNotWhatTheySeem; 16th June 2011 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 16th June 2011, 11:48 PM
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But what I find interesting is that, for the most part, it's men that decry these kinds of films as being misogynistic (Kermode, for example), not women (although there are a few, but seem to be fewer than men). I just wonder what it is about these men that make them feel the need to come rushing to the aid of these 'weak' women, as if they aren't capable for sticking up for themselves.
I disagree. Kermode is very unusual in that he is a prominent openly feminist journalist. I also think this is a self-defeating point in that what you are saying could maybe just highlight that the vast majority of critics and fiim journalists are male!

More to the point, analysing a film and coming to someone's rescue! are two completely separate things.
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Old 17th June 2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TheOwlsAreNotWhatTheySeem View Post
Again, i don't recognise that definition. Anything that expresses a negative view towards women in general might be considered misogynist. Someone who for example thinks women are inferior to men is obviously misogynist, whether or not they hate women. Maybe there is another thread about 'virgin witch'? (but it is one film unusual in that it actually seems to actively normalise sexual harassment - ie the incredibly random scene where a passer-by pinches a girl's backside and she giggles!)
How can you not recognise that definition when it is the actual dictionary definition of the word? Misogyny = hatred of women. Look it up, that's what it says. Someone who thinks women are inferior is a sexist. That's something very different to a misogynist. A misgoynist hates women in totality. Hatred is different to treating someone as inferior. Like I said, that's sexual inequality, a far cry from actually hating women. It might not fit in neatly with your view, but that doesn't change what misogyny actually is.

Virgin Witch is decidely sexist in its portrayal of women, but I wouldn't call it misogynistic. Again, I beg to differ on the notion that sexual inequality equals misogyny.

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I completely agree about rom-coms and often say the same thing. But doesn't that contradict your previous point?! Hollywood romcoms are 'just fiction', and considered 'just entertaiment', but they in particular do have a significant impact on our culture and how we live. Obscure 80s European horror films far less so. But films do mean things whether it's Tarkovsky or a Fulci quickie or a godawful Hugh Grant creepfest!

Anyway, all this discussion has certainly motivated me to watch NYR! Though I think I might rent it rather than buying a copy
I don't think it contradicts my previous post, as Hollywood films are far more populist than obscure European horror films. I don't think they have any great impact on society. The difference is that rom-coms are supposed to be reflecting the real world we live in, they're not as fantastical as the horror genre. If they are indeed a reflection of society's values, then that's what I find troubling. Only mildly troubling though, I don't lose sleep over any of this stuff.

Good debate, though. I'm enjoying our banter, even if we don't completely see eye-to-eye on some things (I think we probably would agree on most things, though).
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  #28  
Old 17th June 2011, 02:53 PM
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One could reasonably argue the film with the most degrading depiction of women in recent years is Sex and the City. Confessions of a Shopaholic isn't much better but apparently this sequel to Satc is even worse. I haven't seen it yet and I'm dreading the prospect!
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Old 18th June 2011, 02:23 AM
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One could reasonably argue the film with the most degrading depiction of women in recent years is Sex and the City. Confessions of a Shopaholic isn't much better but apparently this sequel to Satc is even worse. I haven't seen it yet and I'm dreading the prospect!
With all due respect, I've seen neither and have no intention of doing so.
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Old 18th June 2011, 08:02 AM
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With all due respect, I've seen neither and have no intention of doing so.
Me neither.

As for this thread: Blimey, is this a movie forum or a philosophical debate?

Greetings!

PS: My suggestion would be:
PPS: But then again - keep on debating: it's quite funny to read through all this.
PPS: New York Ripper is about a misogynist - that's for sure. But I was quite satisfied when this sumbitch died at the end of the movie (yeah, that's a spoiler, innit?). You hate this selfish and weak bastard - but as long as you're sane, you'll definitely not hate women after having seen Fulci's movie. The movie does not convey any misogynistic message of any kind. It shows a misogynist at work and that such an attitude does not pay - maybe it's even pro-women? Or a bit contra-men? Just my two cents.
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