Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
So couldn't we argue the same point over, say, the surviving footage of the Nazi Holocaust? I mean, why document their suffering and indignity for all eternity? Well, the argument goes that it's so we'll never forget. But do we need to see it? |
You cannot equate animal abuse for the purposes of entertainment with documentary footage of a historical event. One was created for the purposes of a night out at the pictures, while the other records an important chapter in human history which wasn't staged for the purposes of movie cameras. There really is no comparison between the two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
Film is a visual document and should be preserved as such. We can apply the same logic - so that 'we'll never forget', especially future filmmakers. To remove or destroy the visual document is unacceptable IMO. Let history show what these filmmakers did - removing it achieves nothing. |
As I said in an earlier post, this isn't an issue confined to the distant past - it's still occurring today, on movie sets all over the world. If we cut the material and let people know it's been cut and why, that preserves the historical record. Doesn't that achieve what you're asking for, without adding to the indignity already suffered by the animal in question? Why do we need to SEE it for historical purposes, when simply KNOWING it was once there does exactly the same job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
And I'm still not entirely convinced about Apocalypse Now either - wouldn't you also say that this sequence of ritualistic slaughter is unacceptable to retain as a historical record? |
I haven't seen this particular film, but I understand the scene in question records a ritual slaughter that was NOT staged by the filmmakers but simply recorded by them as part of the culture in which they were filming, and incorporated into their fictional narrative. That's a whole other kettle of fish, and one for which there can be no censorial justification. I recall another film shown on Channel 4 in which a dramatic narrative featured images of sheep being buried alive as part of a religious ritual in a Third World country, and this had simply been recorded as part of a festival. I strongly object to this kind of evil stupidity (especially in the name of religion! - but that's another argument), but there's a HUGE difference between filmmakers staging cruelty for their own purposes and simply recording what occurs naturally in the real world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
Once you're on the road of censorship it leads to ever-increasing levels. It won't just stop at one thing. |
That's a valid argument, and one I share with you wholeheartedly. But we're talking about material which crosses the line into immorality and criminal negligence (it may not be criminal negligence in the country where it was shot, but it
should be). I'd stand with you shoulder to shoulder in defence of THE NEW YORK RIPPER, RED TO KILL and any number of silly horror films, but when it comes to the debasement and killing of a living creature for the sake of 'entertainment', I
will not be moved. There's no excuse for it, pure and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
And let's be clear here - the outlawing of illegal material such as child porn is NOT censorship. It's illegal, that's different from censorship. |
I debated whether or not I should bring child porn into the equation, because that seemed like too extreme of a comparison, but it isn't, really. Both acts are immoral, but of course, we place a greater emphasis on the protection of children than animals. That's as it should be, but if both acts are immoral, then the argument that all such material should not only be removed but DESTROYED is completely valid. You can argue that one crime is more 'serious' than the other, but both cause immense suffering, and that's the point where censors and law enforcement agencies have every right to intervene. The 'historical record' be damned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
Now, killing an animal is NOT illegal. |
Well, that depends on the context. Sending it to slaughter for the purposes of creating food is one thing, but shoving a pin through a lizard and recording its agonies for a film is quite another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonia
(Post 84514)
Treating it cruelly is illegal though, in the UK, so that needs to be enforced for certain. If the BBFC remove sight of an animal being treated cruelly, then that's an illegal act and should be removed - that's not censorship, that's enforcing the law and I agree with that. But is a cat eating a mouse cruelty? As far as I'm aware, it's the cat hurting the mouse, not mankind. Cats eat mice, as unsavoury as that might seem. ;) |
The cat eating the mouse is still cruel, whatever the circumstances, but if Argento's cameraman simply recorded what happened naturally and they decided to incorporate the results into the film (for no good reason that I can see, but that's yet
another argument!), then fair enough. But if they staged the event for the film, that's when it tips the balance into something very different, hence the BBFC's original decision.