The Beyond –The Technical Debate

[Nosferatu@Cult Labs]

Originally Posted by dvdrenato

Well, looking especially at the screenshot of crucified Schwejk in B&W, I automatically get a Silent Movie vision and even "hear" some Slapstick music playing... That certainly wasn't the effect the sequence was supposed to have

Interesting point, but I look at it the opposite way with black-and-white silent movies evoking the horror films of German Expressionism! Despite being a fan of both, I'm more Nosferatu than Chaplin!

[bizarre_eye@Cult Labs]

Yeah, Chaplin@Cult Labs doesn't quite have the same ring to it!

[Nosferatu@Cult Labs]

Originally Posted by bizarre_eye@Cult Labs

Yeah, Chaplin@Cult Labs doesn't quite have the same ring to it!

I suppose not, but he was a hell of a filmmaker and actor. As much as I love horror films, I truly believe that City Lights is one of the 10 best films ever made. As much as I like it, I couldn't say the same thing about The Beyond!

[bizarre_eye@Cult Labs]

Originally Posted by Nosferatu@Cult Labs

I suppose not, but he was a hell of a filmmaker and actor. As much as I love horror films, I truly believe that City Lights is one of the 10 best films ever made. As much as I like it, I couldn't say the same thing about The Beyond!

I could!

But yes, Chaplin was a genius for his time (and for any time for that matter).

[springjack]

Originally Posted by bigandya

Maybe Fulci intended it to be a darker version of The Wizard of Oz instead?

That starts in black and white too... though in a lot of prints I have seen, its sepiatone

No, I totally agree, and no one will ever convince me otherwise - this was never intended to start in black and white.

The Wizard of Oz starts in sepiatone.
The wrong prints were the ones showing it in black and white.

Originally Posted by Snatcher42

Wow, I know it's just a compression issue but I'm surprised how much better the Anchor Bay DVD looks than the Grindhouse. That definitely seems like the one to beat!

Don´t be surprised. The Grindhouse DVD has about 25 minutes more extras:

- "Introduction by Catriona MacColl (0:57)
- "Voices From The Beyond" (23:40)

That makes a huge difference in the A/V department.

[L'enfant Errant]

Originally Posted by springjack

To put context in the history of the American releases, the difference between the Grindhouse Releasing and the Anchor Bay is that the Grindhouse version has more compression artifacts due to the new extra that´s included in the package...

While you're partially right, there's other factors at work, too; the Anchor Bay DVD had edge-enhancement, while the Grindhouse DVD did not. Yes, EE is a bad thing that increases noise and can harm small details by caking them in ringing, but it also gives those high-contrast details a bit more "oomph", which in turn means they're easier to see after being compressed. That's why studios tend to use it in the first place.

The Grindhouse encode used (more?) vertical filtering, too - that's basically the opposite of EE, and tends to blur the image spatially, but leaves motion largely unaffected. Applying this means there's less grain, and less grain means you can encode at a lower bitrate without obvious compression artifacts. Virtually all DVD encodes use this sort of filtering to some degree, though, so I'm not singling out Grindhouse for it, just stating what it looks like they used to squeeze the bitrate down a bit.

The difference between the AB transfer and the Grindhouse transfer is 6.53 Mbps versus 5.77 Mbps. Neither are anywhere close to DVD's maximum bitrate (9.8 Mb), and both transfers would have looked even better with a higher bitrate and moved more of the bonus features to a second disc... but hey, if I had a nickel for every time I've had to say that!

So while the lower bitrate was certainly a factor in the Grindhouse disc being softer, compression's much more involved than that. I'm not trying to argue with you on the subject, it's just one I deal with on a pretty regular basis, and it just drives me nuts when I see transfers of films I love using tricks like EE or vertical filtering when all they really have to do is kick up the stinkin' bitrate...


As for all of the hooplah concerning the transfer:

"GRINDHOUSE RELEASING HAS SPARED NO EXPENSE IN DIGITALLY REMASTERING THE BEYOND AND CANNIBAL FEROX FROM ORIGINAL NEGATIVE AND SOUND ELEMENTS NEWLY RESTORED BY TECHNICOLOR LAB IN ROME. TO ENSURE UTMOST PICTURE QUALITY, THE COLOR TIMING OF THE BEYOND WAS PERSONALLY SUPERVISED BY SERGIO SALVATI, THE ORIGINAL DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY OF THIS TERROR CLASSIC."

Technicolor Rome, huh? Those same guys who did those much loved restorations for SUSPIRIA and SALO? Well, at least we've got no reason to assume anything they do is a mess...

I'd be curious if Mr. Salvati would be as enthused with his transfer of THE BEYOND as much now as he was over a decade ago. Technology improves, after all, and it's entirely possible that some aspects of the Grindhouse transfer were a compromise for the SDTV's which would have been the norm at the time.

Think of it this way; Sam Raimi approved both the Elite DVD transfer and the Anchor Bay Blu-ray transfer for THE EVIL DEAD (Caps-A-Holic comparison), which look quite a bit different in terms of overall contrast and color timing. Was Raimi "wrong" back in 1999? Is he "wrong" now? Or was the Elite transfer simply the best the film could look using now antiquated technology, while the Blu-ray is the best the film can look using contemporary techniques? My vote goes for each being a perfectly valid presentation for the era and the format they were made on - but those formats change pretty dramatically over the space of just a decade.

The best thing to do would be to get Mr. Salvati involved and have him go over the HD materials, since there's probably a world of difference between what a post house could do today and what they would have done back in 2000... but, I can already imagine a multitude of reasons why that may not happen. So unless he does get involved, at least there's no reason to assume the Grindhouse materials aren't at least reasonably close to how the film "should" look...

[springjack]

Originally Posted by L'enfant Errant

I'm not trying to argue with you on the subject, it's just one I deal with on a pretty regular basis, and it just drives me nuts when I see transfers of films I love using tricks like EE or vertical filtering when all they really have to do is kick up the stinkin' bitrate...

You´re right about what you said.
I also deal with the subject on a regular basis... daily.
I just said about the compression artifacts without going deeper into the technical stuff because many folks are not into that.

Originally Posted by L'enfant Errant

Technicolor Rome, huh? Those same guys who did those much loved restorations for SUSPIRIA and SALO? Well, at least we've got no reason to assume anything they do is a mess...

I'd be curious if Mr. Salvati would be as enthused with his transfer of THE BEYOND as much now as he was over a decade ago. Technology improves, after all, and it's entirely possible that some aspects of the Grindhouse transfer were a compromise for the SDTV's which would have been the norm at the time.

Think of it this way; Sam Raimi approved both the Elite DVD transfer and the Anchor Bay Blu-ray transfer for THE EVIL DEAD (Caps-A-Holic comparison), which look quite a bit different in terms of overall contrast and color timing. Was Raimi "wrong" back in 1999? Is he "wrong" now? Or was the Elite transfer simply the best the film could look using now antiquated technology, while the Blu-ray is the best the film can look using contemporary techniques? My vote goes for each being a perfectly valid presentation for the era and the format they were made on - but those formats change pretty dramatically over the space of just a decade.

The best thing to do would be to get Mr. Salvati involved and have him go over the HD materials, since there's probably a world of difference between what a post house could do today and what they would have done back in 2000... but, I can already imagine a multitude of reasons why that may not happen. So unless he does get involved, at least there's no reason to assume the Grindhouse materials aren't at least reasonably close to how the film "should" look...

That was just a quote I found on the Grindhouse Releasing site. You have reasons to disregard their recent Suspiria restorations but don´t forget the Anchor Bay/Blue Underground restoration of Suspiria was one of the best video restorations of it´s time. Also, their Anchor Bay/Grindhouse Releasing of The Beyond was great.

I´ll not talk about The Evil Dead because every time the movie gets released (lost count) it has something of a different look/twikering. I still haven´t buy the Blue-Ray and the only version I have is the Ultimate Edition from Anchor Bay R1 and I´m pretty happy with it for the meantime.

And let´s not star about Star Wars...

[L'enfant Errant]

Originally Posted by springjack

I just said about the compression artifacts without going deeper into the technical stuff because many folks are not into that.

Wha?!? You mean everyone on the planet doesn't A/B test encoders with different stress-test clips, just to see the resutls?

But I figured, well, why not mention it? We're in the "Technical" discussion, right?

Also, their Anchor Bay/Grindhouse Releasing of The Beyond was great.

It sure isn't bad, though compared to Suspiria or nearly any of the transfers Anchor Bay followed it with, it feels far more gritty - there's flicker, scratches, speckles and bobble out the wazoo on the Grindhouse transfer of The Beyond, and I was never sure if that was because the materials were in worse shape or because it wasn't given the same level of processing as its contemporaries (or some combination thereof).

Grindhouse is a really dedicated studio, and I always love seeing how much care they put into their titles... too bad their Cannibal Holocaust transfer was way beneath their usual standard.

And let´s not star about Star Wars...

Agreed!

I just figured The Evil Dead (or Alien, or Dawn of the Dead, or Halloween, or half a dozen other great films I could think of...) would be a decent way to remind people that just because we have an "approved" transfer made 10, 15 or 20 years ago doesn't mean the transfer can't still be improved upon.

Salvati's the final word on The Beyond, but he hasn't had a chance to say anything in 11 years. As such I don't doubt that the Italian materials were a bit wonky, but I'm also not yet willing to say "The film has to look like the Grindhouse transfer, or it's WRONG!!", either.

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by Nosferatu@Cult Labs

Interesting point, but I look at it the opposite way with black-and-white silent movies evoking the horror films of German Expressionism! Despite being a fan of both, I'm more Nosferatu than Chaplin!

And don't forget Nosferatu was originally tinted with different colours.

[Paul@TheOverlook]

Originally Posted by Jonny

And don't forget Nosferatu was originally tinted with different colours.

Was that before or after he became a mod on Cult Labs?