Tenebrae – Technically Speaking

[Djangooo]

Originally Posted by Nosferatu@Cult Labs

Great post, Baseball Fury. It's a terrific analogy and I would seriously doubt if those who do a frame-by-frame analysis derive from any enjoyment from the experience.

When I watch a DVD or BD for review, I go by overall impression and, if any glaring error catches my eye, I make a note of it. Otherwise, if it looks good, I'll say so, just as I will if it looks bad without going into too much jargon about interlacing, DNR, edge enhancement or anything else that I would personally find boring to read. I tried to make writing a review pleasurable, not a chore, and would like to think they read that way.

A frame-by-frame analysis isn't always necessary to realise that something is amiss. The digital noise argument isn't really a huge deal to me as my tv is only a 37", but the brightening of these films is a huge issue for me (given that they are horror films afterall).

The absurd brightening in the initial release of The Beyond and now in this really destroy the atmosphere for me, and that's not something I need to be nit picky and take screenshots for. It's glaring to me and destroys mood. And let's face it, the scripts in these films aren't the greatest. They're all about atmosphere and visuals, and if a dodgy transfer is ruining the mood of the film for you, or destroying shadows then that's all there is to it. It's not being picky or anal.

And to those saying to just sit back and enjoy the film rather than taking note of the transfer, most of us here already own the films. You're buying the Arrow Blu Ray for the visual fidelity. If you aren't getting that then obviously you're going to feel cheated regardless of how good the film is, hence the negative reviews Arrow are increasingly receiving.

[L'enfant Errant]

Originally Posted by Djangooo

And to those saying to just sit back and enjoy the film rather than taking note of the transfer, most of us here already own the films.

This is exactly why a Blu-ray release being mediocre always bums me out. I've probably bought this flick two or three times already, and odds are each of them has unique footage or special features... if the Blu-ray isn't the end-all edition, why should I bother shelling out another $25 USD for it? A wise cartoon once said something like... "You can only keep taking my money for so long, until you have it all, and I say ENOUGH!"

Certainly there's degrees of quality, and it's fair to expect that "bigger" titles get more money put into their restoration. I DON'T expect Tenebrae to look like Taxi Driver, or The Sound of Music or whatever. The market just isn't there - some scratches on the print or using a new print instead of restoring from the actual negative is something I can happily look past. But is it unfair to ask that the UK release look at least as good as the French release from several months back?

The issue isn't that Arrow is mucking things up either - it's clearly a different master (colors and framing are totally different), and I have no doubt it's made by the same guys who remastered Django and New York Ripper and all of those other transfers BU has released - but that right there is... strange. Nowadays when a new HD master is made everyone more or less uses the same one, and even when they fuss with it (ie: INFERNO) the original film scan is basically the same in the US, UK, France, Japan and anywhere else the film has surfaced since about 2007.

Could someone at Arrow maybe make a few calls, do some research into why there's two masters for this film? I expect it might be a little late for Tenebrae (this isn't something they could fix "in house" like THE BEYOND), but it'd at least be interesting to know why there's two totally different transfers kicking around...

[Daemonia]

Originally Posted by L'enfant Errant

The issue isn't that Arrow is mucking things up either - it's clearly a different master (colors and framing are totally different), and I have no doubt it's made by the same guys who remastered Django and New York Ripper and all of those other transfers BU has released - but that right there is... strange. Nowadays when a new HD master is made everyone more or less uses the same one, and even when they fuss with it (ie: INFERNO) the original film scan is basically the same in the US, UK, France, Japan and anywhere else the film has surfaced since about 2007.

As far as I know, BU supervise their own transfers/2k scans for their BD releases, they don't 'buy in' transfers, as it were. They make their own. So with that in mind, there's also now two transfers of Inferno kicking around too. But does that really matter? Just buy whatever suits you. It can't be that difficult, surely? So you don't like the 'look' of an Arrow release. Then don't buy it. Simple as that, really.

To be honest, I've never noticed edge enhancement...ever. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough? Then again, if my focus was on looking for defects in the image, I wouldn't be relaxing and enjoying the film.

[doolahrock]

[QUOTE=Daemonia;159947 Then again, if my focus was on looking for defects in the image, I wouldn't be relaxing and enjoying the film. [/QUOTE]

Hail to that. My job involves shooting and editing video but I still have no time for pressing my nose up against a screen to try and pluck out Blu Ray transfer or encoding oddities. I feel sorry for those that do. If it's a glaring glitch then fair enough but I think some people need to relax but I fear it's beyond them.

[L'enfant Errant]

Originally Posted by Daemonia

As far as I know, BU supervise their own transfers/2k scans for their BD releases, they don't 'buy in' transfers, as it were. They make their own. So with that in mind, there's also now two transfers of Inferno kicking around too.

I know BU loves to tout "From the Negative" every chance they get, and I'm sure some of their releases are, but DEEP RED proves that isn't always true. I'd bet they scanned the English titles for the shorter 'Export' cut for their release, but the color, framing, damage - everything about the Director's Cut is 100% identical between the Arrow and BU release. If those are "different" masters... well, they managed to make it look no different than a transfer that's five or six years old, and should really get some kind of refund!

With that in mind, I'm pretty sure INFERNO is the same HD master made in 2007 for the Italian DVD with a lot of color-tweaking in post. It seems the only real difference between the French and US BDs is the color and framing, both of which are very easy to fix using something like Final Cut Pro or Sony Vegas, or even free tools if you like writing lines of code to pull it off.

But does that really matter? Just buy whatever suits you. It can't be that difficult, surely? So you don't like the 'look' of an Arrow release. Then don't buy it. Simple as that, really.

Oh, I agree; I speak with my wallet when a release does or doesn't tickle my fancy. But I'd still much rather Arrow had the best materials available, as they consistently outdo themselves with extras and packaging and overall presentation. Arrow has the very real potential to the absolute best cult-themed studio anywhere in the world, but if they're using elements that's actually lower quality than a different release... well, that can't help their bottom line, 'cause I know it's costing them sales from me, at the very least. Extras and reversible covers are great, but if the master isn't up to snuff, where do I draw the line? I still kinda want this Tenebrae release, but I already own two or three DVDs and if I'm going to bother importing a Blu-ray, I'd hope it'd look as perfect as it can...

Heh, and to think, I thought buying 4 copies of every Argento film would end with DVD... man, what was I thinking?

To be honest, I've never noticed edge enhancement...ever. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough? Then again, if my focus was on looking for defects in the image, I wouldn't be relaxing and enjoying the film.

I think it only gets worse when you start doing DVD transfers yourself. About 7 years ago, I didn't even know what "EE" or "DVNR" or "Telecine judder" or "3:2 Pulldown" even meant! Now, the moment I spot any of it I feel my eye twitching, knowing I could probably fix it if I had a weekend to spare fussing over it...

[Paul@TheOverlook]

Originally Posted by Daemonia

To be honest, I've never noticed edge enhancement...ever. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough? Then again, if my focus was on looking for defects in the image, I wouldn't be relaxing and enjoying the film.

Depends on the size of the screen though. I have a 46" LCD and, must say, don't really notice much untoward on a screen that size. If I were watching the disc through a state-of-the-art projector on a 6' screen, it would probably be a different case altogether.

There are transfers on BD that I have been less than overwhelmed by though - usually because the image looks no better than upscaled DVD - I watched the Sofia Coppola film SOMEWHERE the other night and that's a case point, though I'm sure that this is how the film was supposed to look but still made me think "should have bought the DVD instead, even though the surround was noticably better than that of a DVD.

[Daemonia]

Originally Posted by Paul@Lovelockandload

Depends on the size of the screen though. I have a 46" LCD and, must say, don't really notice much untoward on a screen that size. If I were watching the disc through a state-of-the-art projector on a 6' screen, it would probably be a different case altogether.

There are transfers on BD that I have been less than overwhelmed by though - usually because the image looks no better than upscaled DVD - I watched the Sofia Coppola film SOMEWHERE the other night and that's a case point, though I'm sure that this is how the film was supposed to look but still made me think "should have bought the DVD instead, even though the surround was noticably better than that of a DVD.

Yes, I guess the size of screen could have a bearing on how a BD looks. I watch films on a 42" LCD HDTV, so I can well imagine them looking different if, say, projected.

I also agree that some BD transfers have underwhelmed me, but these have tended to be newer films. Older films, for the most part, look terrific on BD. Poltergeist blew me away on BD and I realised how fuzzy the DVD transfer was - and I thought the DVD was great at the time of purchase! BD makes you realise how much better films can look, so it's always a disappointment when a BD transfer is less than it should be.

[Paul@TheOverlook]

That's very true about mostly newer films being something of a disappointment and I guess, this has more to do with the technical formats and processes used when the film was made (and graded) rather than it does with the transfer to BD.

I've not got POLTERGEIST - must look out for that because I have just the DVD (an older Dutch release at that). Cheers for the tip.

[Prince_Vajda]

Originally Posted by Steel76

An article that goes through the diffrence in the Arrow and French release and more.

Kentai's Films: Maniacal Machine Noise Haunts TENEBRAE...

Im quite sure this guy from "Kentai" could not recap the story of a film he has seen - but he definitely could tell you the exact amount of artificial film grain added.

This guy is really thinking he's the cat's whiskers - are we supposed to cry or to laugh?

After all, the movie itself is all that counts. But I guess "Kentai" would prefer a great PQ over a great film.

Greetings!

[Steel76]

Originally Posted by Prince_Vajda

After all, the movie itself is all that counts. But I guess "Kentai" would prefer a great PQ over a great film.

Well, then we should just have stuck with VHS

The reason why we upgrade from our DVD copies to Blu-Ray, is because of the PQ, the higher resolution and finedetails we can get over the DVD:s.

On DVD you could get away with an lackluster transfer because of the lower resolution, on Blu-Ray those flaws have nowhere to hide, which demands MUCH more from the transfer.

And when you look at a movie on a bigger screen or with a projector, faults in a transfer are impossible to ignore, no matter HOW great the movie is.

And that´s why I didn´t upgrade to the new "Maniac" BD from Blue-Underground, since the black levels went from black to light grey and the ugly colors and the heavy use of DNR screwed up that release compared to the old Anchor Bay THX DVD that had perfect blacks and colors. Plus, thanks to the use of DNR on that BD there was no fine details to gain over the DVD anyways.

People said "well, that´s how a 16mm blown up to 35mm looks", oh yeah?, check out Evil Dead and Dorm that Dripped Blood on BD too see what 16mm SHOULD look like without filtering.

I´m not in a hurry really, and if Arrows BD really looks as mediocre as the screenshots, then I´ll either get the french disc, or watch the DVD until another BD release of the movie.

There are other BD releases from Arrow that I have higher hopes for, like Funhouse and Maniac Cop. Since their Vamp BD looked awesome, it seems only the Italian movies get lackluster transfers

I don´t really blame Arrow anymore about the quality of the Italian movies, it´s the damn distributors in italy that deserves a slap in the faces, for giving Arrow such materials to work with.

And since Demons have taken so long to arrive from Arrow, because they are searching for better elements, I´m REALLY glad their taking their time on that one instead of using the materials they were handed. I can only imagine how horrible it must have looked

Enjoy the Midsummers Eve!

Cheers!