No. It isn't. All anime are cartoons, not all cartoons are anime.

OK, so maybe a 15 was a little light (I don't know I have never seen it), but I find it EXTREMELY odd that you are OK with actors depicting rape so long as they are older than the parts they play but mere drawings get you riled up. It makes no sense to me.

Edit: I don't want this to go all "A Serbian Film's model baby" again, I was just very confused by the proposition.

Hentai. That's all I have to say on this matter;);)

It wasn't as graphic as you make out, as a concept its horrible but it had a REASON TO BE IN THE FILM, there was context. As I said, the central character is capeable of bringing around human extinction and replacing the human race with diclonians. Each of the human characters is dealing with some horror/trauma in their past that forces them to consider if humanity is worth saving. Add to that the young girl who is raped by her father gets a clear chance for revenge from the agent on the beach who offeres her one free murder as reward for saving his life, she turns it down because unlike her father she's not twisted screwed up and evil and thats why she represents that not all the human race is cruel twisted and evil.

The scene in question isn't lollicon, and its certainly nowhere nearly as bad as some quite mainstream anime fare like moon phase, a series I found WAY more dubious than Elfen lied because it clearly had very strong peadophillic overtones that seemd to present older teenage boys in relationships with pre-teens as somewhow a positive thing.

Its all about context.

Goji. No. Anime is a completely different median, some dubed anime aimed at american audiences are classed at cartooons, but all anime originates from Japan, and is a median in an of itself.

And it's not what is being depicted that I don't like, it's the age.
The victims in Salo are playing 16-17 year olds, no matter what you consider a minor or not THATS ADULT AGE IN THE EYE'S OF THE LAW.
The child in Elfin Lied is, yes, a drawing, but there is a deffinit difference between a young adult and a drokking 8 year old RAPED BY HER OWN FATHER!
What's worse? The next scene show's the girl's mother beating her and blaming her for the reason as to why her husband doesn't get it on with her any more. **** this show, condemn all who worked pn it and burn any copy's in site. Oh, and at least salo has a competant story and moral, Elfin Lied is nothing more than a vapid soulles object, Like Bela from Twishite.

So you didnt understand it so it should be burned and everyone elses opinions be damnned eh?
Thats a dangerous road to go down.

Again. No. This makes no sense whatsoever. A cartoon in this sense means an animated motion picture. End of. All anime are cartoons. End of.

Again, I cannot get a handle on your mindset at all. in fact, it frightens me more than a little when you go into the "condemn all who worked pn it and burn any copy's in site" thing.

It's a drawing. It's a film. It's not real.

Yeah, it's all a bit 'Video Nasties' this isn't it?. It's exactly the same outraged mindset

No, I understood it. The explanations where utter tosh only holding relevance to the plot, no empaphy could be felt between any of the characters at all. Lucy, the serial killer with the dual personality complex, the wincest couple (...), and the little girl who drown's herself to ecape the horrid world she live's in where ass hat's are happy to be payed to terminate minors. No one has any kind of interesting personality trait that make's us like them, and because of this the 'moral' of the story is completely negated. In the end of the day it was just an unpleasent gore and nudity fest with a handful of truely unpleasent scenes. Now mindless gore and nudity I relish, but when it's coupled with genuine malice, it's just pointless and grating.

I think that before we start handing out the pitchforks, please remember that Salo was derided at the time, for similar "reasons". Some people clearly are uncomfortable with watching unsettling imagery outside what they consider to be a "ordinary" setting...i.e. Anime/cartoons/stop motion ETC. I won't recommend Where The Dead Go To Die then...but will plug Paranoia Agent, Perfect Blue, Paprika till the proverbial creatures with udders come home.

The 'burn all copy's on site' was just a phrase I used to say 'avoid'. Hope that clarify's that. And Goji, what sound's more sleazy? Masojonistic 'experiments' performed by a bunch of ex-nazi's on 18 year olds. A father raping his own daughter followed by a prolonged scene of child beating. The child is 8 years old.
I know what's worse for sure. And just because it's animated doesn't make it any less wrong. Animation is often used as a window for more liberal actions, but this take's the biscuit and violates it.

Oh and once again, no. All anime is animation. All cartoons are animation. Not all animation is either cartoons or anime. They are two different giant's all together.

The child isn't real. It's a drawing. A fictional drawing.

I have no idea what your definition of "cartoon" is. A cartoon is a drawn animation - ie not stop motion. If the film has been drawn - by hand or on a computer - then it is a cartoon.

Bugs Bunny is cartoon, Fantasia is a cartoon, Toy Story is a cartoon and all anime are cartoons.

All anime are cartoons, not all animation is cartoons. All cartoons are animation.

So you didn't get it. Thats ok, I'm thinking though other people should really see the scene in context, and the fact that you don't actually see the rape. The scene is creepy enough but its more implied than shown and I just find your reaction to it a little over the top. I don't think the series was a major classic but I thought it provided me with food for thought, you asked me how I could like it and I gave my reasons.

That's what I thought about anime years ago but, after watching films like Akira, Perfect Blue and those from Studio Ghibli, plus some TV series, I completely changed my mind.

It's something where you need to rent a couple of the highly regarded films, both from Hayao Miyazaki and more adult-oriented output and watch them with an open mind. I'd be surprised if you're disappointed.

Dammit! I got Perfect Blue after the last time this subject came up and I cannot for the life of me find it! Still haven't seen it. :(

Is Perfect Blue the one that's meant to have been an inspiration on Black Swan?

You'll have to have a proper sort out and see if it turns up at the bottom of a pile of DVDs! Another title which is really worth checking out and I should have mentioned in my previous post is Ghost in the Shell, described as "A stunning feat of modern animation, Ghost in the Shell offers a thoughtful, complex treat for anime fans, as well as a perfect introduction for viewers new to the genre."

The way I see it we cant agree on the appropriate nature of the scene so ill play the good man and step down for now, ill just say one thing though. I would protest just as loudely if it had been live action.

Oh and Goji, animation is a medium of entertainment, cartoons (american or european et al) and anime (Japanese) are two sub medians of this medum. Calling all anime cartoons is like calling all romantic comedys horror movies.

A cartoon is an animated motion picture. That's all. Country of origin, story, mood - all irrelevant.

I have no idea what you think "cartoon" means. I particularly don't see what country it is from has to do with anything.

As you say, animation is a medium of entertainment (though this is a crass simplification). It includes stop motion animation, collage animation and drawn animation. The drawn animations are cartoons. It's all tremendously simple to understand.

"Anime" is a term to describe (a style of) Japanese cartoons. It does not describe anything separate from cartoons, but cartoons from a specific film industry with a certain look. It is both correct and acceptable to refer to anime as cartoons. Because they are.

I do like a lively debate!

alas, all I have to contribute is a mediocre question... like a few others, I have avoided anime like the plague due to the mistaken belief that it is 'below' the kind of stuff I would usually watch. considering that I'm a member of this forum, you'll have a rough idea of my usual film diet, someone recommend me something to go and watch?

a mate of mine has already told me to go and rent a season of DBZ, but I fear the recommendation of 'it's violent, you'll like it' might do a slight disservice to my taste :lol:

Hmm! I'll give it ago! I'll look at lovefilm instant later:decision:

To touch briefly on this debate, I agree with Goji and have always stood by this: cartoons are animation regardless of country of origin. In fact I often choose to avoid saying 'anime' altogether in place of 'Japanese animation' to avoid splitting hairs.

For users like WinterMillennium I will say it's tricky to recommend one particular place to start with Japanese animation; however I personally would certainly dip into the popular side of the spectrum first with films like Akira, Ghost in the Shell and Nausicca depending on your personal taste.

I will say I did just see Ben Wheatley's latest film Sightseers the other night, bloody good it was. :popcorn:

I disagree. It has got to the point now where eastern and western styles of animation have become so different both in accepted style and general formulai. I had a similar discussion over at TGWTG where many people where unable to differentiate Transformers from Gundam. Not only is there a abys of a difference in terms of production values.and asthetic style, but also in terms of narrative and character development. Look at alot of western serials and they share the same.general format. The same applys to anime. There is a distinct difference.in story telling between the two cultures and to plop them together into one super catagory is actuly a bit tactless. To compare the works of Miyazaki to those of Hanna Barbera is a bit insulting to one of the greatest film makers of our time.

Of course anime are cartoons, you'd have to be daft to think otherwise, plus it says so on Wikipedia, which we all know is the oracle of the internet

Anime (Japanese: アニメ?, [a.ni.me] ( listen); i/ˈænɨmeɪ/ or /ˈɑːnɨmeɪ/) are Japanese cartoons and computer animation. The word is the abbreviated pronunciation of "animation" in Japanese. In English, the term is defined as a style of animation originating in Japan, which often features colorful graphics, vibrant characters and action-filled plots with fantastic or futuristic themes.The intended meaning of the term sometimes varies depending on the context.

just to wade into an argument that has nothing to do with me, couldn't you say that horror has a wide spectrum of aesthetics, narrative and character development? no-one would argue that it isn't still horror though, regardless of how many subgenres and subcultures it's been broken down into

I think Hawks embarrassed that he likes cartoons. :pound:

Why is this becoming ever so slightly to personal? And Rik, wikipedia is hardly the most reliable site on the web. There is no true deffinitipn to disipher anime from cartoons and its completely dpwn to individual interpretation.

Also off topic but I may be seeing The Man With The Iron Fists this weekend. Many of my friends from the States said it was awful, but considering some of the dross I've seen this year (Ghost Rider 2, Silent Hill 2 say hi) it can't be that bad. Maybe. :crazy:

actually bud, i think you're on topic, it's the rest of us that have strayed off :lol:

Who are you referring to?

It kinda feel's like no one agree's with me so it's let's all pile on Hawky moment. Might just be me, soft ****er I am but, eh I just wanted to get my opinion across.

No, but it is a collection of facts derived from other sources. I'm not having a personal dig at you mate, that certainly isn't my style, but anime is a form of cartoon, such as Dubstep is a form of music, although some may disagree ;)

As an outsider reading all the posts, you did sound like an angry young Hawkmonger for no real reason, other than you love anime and you hated it when it was classed as a cartoon by others.

I just struggle to see the logic in your argument... I'm sure you know what you're trying to get across, and I'm damn sure you know more about anime than I do, but I don't get it.

that said, categorisation is a very subjective thing... people who don't listen to metal would probably struggle to call the difference between black and death, but for those of us that do the difference is pretty self-evident

Just look up the word "cartoon" in a dictionary.

It's really simple. You're making up definitions that don't exist, Hawk!

There is no dishonour in something being a cartoon. I don't know why you are so upset by a simple fact.

You may feel that the (criminally over-rated, in my view) Miyazaki is somehow insulted by being put in the same style of film-making as Hanna-Barbera, but they both make cartoons. It's a style of film-making that covers many genres and styles.

Zombi Holocaust is a horror film, so is The Haunting. Both very different, Both different levels of artistic achievement, still both horror.

Seriously, you are totally missing that "cartoon" is just a simple term for a drawn animated motion picture. Everything else you mention is completely irrelevant.

You might as well be arguing that "bicycle" doesn't mean "bicycle".

But that's just kinda my problem, Music in the current argument is Animation.
By that logic, Dubstep is the musical equivelant of Cartoons, while Prog Rock could be considered the musical equivelant Anime. There two seprate genre's IMHO, though there to broad to be considered meagre genre's.

Oh, hang on. So you think "cartoon" only means things like Animaniacs, Scooby Doo and He-Man.

No.

They are cartoons, but cartoon is a much bigger term than that.

Fritz The Cat, Fantastic Planet, Jungle Burger...these are all cartoons. And so is Japanese animation.

Generaly I would apply Cartoons to striclty western culture, American and Eurpean primerily. Anime is restricted to Japan and followers a different format to that of western animation. Just look at Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and compare it to WALL.E and tell me there not polar opposites despite having the same theme and moral.

So they are different looking and different in execution.. Fine.

Both cartoons though.

I refer you back to my Zombi Holocaust/The Haunting thing.

Fair doess, but I know many who would no consider The Haunting to not be Horror (ie, induces a feeling of horror) and is instead a supernatural thriller (ie, spooky but not overtly horrific). This make's it a completely different kettle of fish but is once again subjective, like the rest of the argument. We could argue about this until the end of time, there is NO deffinitive deffinition.